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eg's avatar

Spoiler alert: Athens lost ...

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Brian Romanchuk's avatar

Rats. That whole “the strong must do what they must” line looks a bit silly in retrospect, then.

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eg's avatar

Well, in fairness that episode comes from when Athens still very much had the upper hand, especially over little vassal states like Delos of whom they were making an object lesson lest any of the other poodles get ideas ...

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dale coberly's avatar

i liked this. not in a position to contribute. wish you well.

my memory of the Melian dialog is that it was not a bargaining tactic, but a "reason" given by the Athenians to the Melians for why they were going to kill them. my memory is not reliable, but it suggests to me something deeper behind the "art of the deal': Trump likes to win, but he likes to destroy even better.

thank you for writing your essays. i can't really follow the bond market logic (don't know enough) but it comforts me a litle to hear what sounds to me like a rational voice.

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dale coberly's avatar

my short term memory is worse than my long term:

you said: "Athens famously extorted Melos with the logic “The strong do what they must do, the weak accept what they must accept” (called the Melian Dialogue,"

I will try to edit my comment to Melian where I said Delian.

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Brian Romanchuk's avatar

I didn’t explain how Melos fit in - they were an (ex-) ally in the Delian League. I just mentioned it because it comes up a lot, and it might be similar to later pronouncements…

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dale coberly's avatar

edit did not take

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dale coberly's avatar

apparently it did take. meanwhile i looked it up. the Melian Dialogue took place before the Athenian victory, changing the moral slightly...though the basic attitude of the Athenians remained: they did kill all the Melians. The famous quote was part of a much longer lecture on the wisdom of realpolitik.

Eventually Athens lost the war. complicated story but nothing much appears to have changed under the sun since.

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